So a recent discussion here got me curious about what others think as in regards to some things in the bible. Perhaps this will be my first part in such posts.
So the discussion is asking "Why is being gay wrong?' Well it isnt the part of being gay that I am confused about here but biblical "laws" that are being discussed in this discussion. For example this one has been thrown out a lot, "Leviticus 20:13: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." " What confuses me about this is that this is supposed to be the word of God and his punishment yet a WOMAN who commits adultery or has premarital sex should also be put to death and a number of other things as mentioned in the bible. A lot of the people that I get information from who are more schooled in the bible say that laws such as this were put away so to speak after the birth and death of Jesus Christ.
So where is the line?
Where is it that something becomes acceptable vs unacceptable in the bible?
So many who profess to go straight from the bible and to base their moral values strictly from the bible without any interpretation say that it says what it says and there is no room for change. Yet things have changed. The world has changed. If we were going to truly be living our lives verbatim to what the bible says shouldnt women still be property with less worth than the animals a man owns? Shouldnt women still be completely insignificant compared to the importance of a man? Which verses are the ones that should be given the most attention? As a former member of the United Pentecostal Church of God women were allowed to only wear long dresses and had to keep their hair long because in the bible there was a verse that said a woman's hair is her glory and another verse that says a man shall dress as a man and a woman will dress as a woman and basically the two lines never cross.....yet I see women everywhere with short hair wearing t-shirts and jeans just like their husbands.
Often I hear that God makes no mistakes or that it is all God's plan yet that is only said when it pertains to acceptable circumstances such as someone being ill and suddenly being better or when someone talks about the trials of having an ill child. So if God makes no mistakes and it is all His plan how is it that people have such a hard time believing that someone can be born gay for instance?
Why is it that people judge others and the lives of others when they arent living the way that they feel you should be living yet if someone calls out one of them for something they are the ones who are all about "who are you to judge that is for God". I have seen this happen sooooo many times in so many circles. I am a non Christian and have had so many judge me for not being a believer yet when one of those who has judged me does/says something that I know is not acceptable on a biblical nor social level will then tell me that I have no right to judge them as I do not live the life they live. Where is the line of where it is God's role to judge and man's role to judge.
Yes this is all over the place sorry.....my brain is running all over the place :) Please I would love feedback and would like to open this up for discussion. I promise that I am not looking to bash anyone for anything I just want to find out where individuals stand on these issues and even expand on it.
ARGH sorry everyone I just viewed and saw that over half my post was the same color as the background LOL hard to read that way :) Fixed now :)
ReplyDeleteShannon, you bring up some excellent question, and I will attempt to give my feedback as best as I can :)
ReplyDeleteI honestly don't know why women who committed adultery in the old testament were subject to harsher punishment than men. This always bothers me, too. I know there is a lot of room for grace though, and grace was shown to adulterous women in the old testament, such as Tamar and Rahab.
Basically, when Jesus came he pretty much turned everything upside down, which is one reason why so many of the jewish people hated him. The religious jews were following the letter of the law. They did everything the law required, and yet had hearts of stone that did not love God. When Jesus came he made it clear that it is the heart attitude that matters, and he expanded the law to include heart attitudes as well as outward works. His perfect life and death fulfilled the law and made it so much of the ceremonial law of leviticus no longer applied. Many christians believe that the rules for morality are found in the new testament.
Now, as for the new testament, we have to look at who the books were written to, and during which time period, and why the books were written. A lot of the rules for women had to do with what was socially acceptable at the time, so that christian women were regarded as virtuous by others. I know it seems like the bible is anti-woman, but this is really not the case. Jesus was a radical feminist for his time. He spoke with women as equals, he ate with them, he befriended them, something that was unheard of at the time. The new testament also never forbids women to own property or anything like that; that was the law of the Romans and Jews at that time. Jesus was radically pro-women, so it would make sense that as the times changed so did the role of women.
Okay, now for your last paragraph... Unless you are a judge (like, literally, a judge), it is never man's role to judge others. As a christian, if asked, I will state what I believe the bible to say about certain issues (such as homosexuality), but I do not have the right to judge the lifestyles of others. I must worry about my own heart and my own sin, and leave everyone else up to God. This does not mean that I can't state my beliefs when asked. God has called me to love my neighbor as myself, regardless of a person's lifestyle, religion, etc. Do I fail in this? Of course. I am definitely guilty of judging others, and it is something that I must work on every day. Jesus is always a good example to follow: he loved prostitutes, thiefs, tax collectors, adulterers, and every type of sinner. He fellowshiped with them, ate with them, and befriended them, all the while preaching against such things. If Christians today acted more like Jesus we would be drawing people to Christ instead of alienating them.
shannon, i agree with your thoughts. i have many of my own. it's probably best that i don't start letting it flow all over your blog. ;) just know that you are not alone.
ReplyDeleteha-ha! me again. i just read something that made me think of your post. not necessarily the Biblical aspect, but the homosexuality aspect. i didn't participate in the conversation at BF, in fact i have been successful in BF detox. which is a shame in a way...i did like many people there. but the constant conversations about the same old things with the same old arguments and the inability to consider another point of view was frustrating.
ReplyDeleteanyway, the note regarding homosexuality which is actually in regards to same-sex parenting. i thought it was interesting and hopeful.
***
The Executive Board of The American Anthropological Association, the world’s largest organization of anthropologists, released the following statement on February 26, 2004 in response to President Bush’s call for a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage as a threat to civilization:
“The results of more than a century of anthropological research on households, kinship relationships, and families, across cultures and through time, provide no support whatsoever for the view that either civilization or viable social orders depend upon marriage as an exclusively heterosexual institution. Rather, anthropological research supports the conclusion that a vast array of family types, including families built upon same-sex partnerships, can contribute to stable and humane societies.
The Executive Board of the American Anthropological Association strongly opposes a constitutional amendment limiting marriage to heterosexual couples.”
Interesting post Shannon & Kudos to you for being respectful. I want to give an applause to Jess for her comment...really good! I am a Christian, but I think I'm what they call a 'New Age Christian.' I have an open mind & I believe the bible is so outdated. It talks of King's & there is so much that doesn't apply any longer. Some thing's such as adultery, stealing or killing will stay with us & be universal in the time's...much of the other stuff that is spoken of just doesn't apply anymore. It is hard to wrap your mind around what it actually means in today's world. I just try to have a personal relationship with the Lord & ask forgiveness of my sins & *never* judge other's. Do what you think is right & live with a good heart & good intentions. God knows who you are & he knows your heart as well.
ReplyDeleteShannon, thank you so much for your sweet comment on Chelsea's Story. It really means a lot to me for you to write that! :o)
ReplyDeleteOh, and I don't think I could comment on this post any better than Jess did!
{{HUGS}}
Robin :o)
Hi Shannon!
ReplyDeleteI am a Christian and I hope that I can share a little of what I have learned about Old Testament law with you...please bear with me as I try :)
God didn't punish one sex more severe than another. He gave a maximum punishment..or a 'to the full extent of the law' as we have today type punishments. A person COULD be put to death for breaking a law or many laws, but the judge could decide a different punishment, one that was less severe and there had to be witnesses...so if a person was brought forth for adultry, fornication, homosexuality...someone had to not just see it, but also give proof. Jesus proved this about extent of punishment when he said 'any without sin cast the first stone' and when none did so, he sent the supposed adultress on her way telling her 'go and sin no more.' God is a JUST and LOVING God. He condemns sin, but loves the sinner. He also provides an out for sinners, it is SALVATION. Which He freely gives to any who ask. Church doctrines are of men/women and hold NO weight againest scripture. I also see no scripture that supports the idea that men were judged less harshly. God made the laws equally for both men and women. As the Pentecostal Holiness people go ...they are following a doctrine, not a scriture...I would stay away from a church that claims to know all and puts such rules on its congregation. That said. God is Unchanging. His Word is unchanging. Jesus didn't come to abolish the law but to fufill it. This means we don't need a priest or sacrifice to come to Him, not to make irrelevant God's laws. The Bible is just as releveant today as it was before...kind is simply the term used for ruler at the time.The same people that pick and choose 'relevant' scriptures ususally will not do so with other historical texts. Also, the Bible tells believers directly not to add to or take away from it. This is speaking to doctrines either way. And about judging others...so many do this on both sides you know. It is very sad. The Bible tells me to judge the BODY of BELIEVERS and not unbelievers...Shannon, while I disagree with you, I love you. If I lived near you I would enjoy getting to know you and your family as much as either of us cared to. If you had questions I would do my best to answer them and then just hang out. Jesus calls me, and you if you choose to follow Him, to be His light to the world. To use love and kindness to reach the lost.
And one last note...Other anthropology studies have also shown that there have NEVER been ANY long lasting cultures that included homosexuality. I suppose that it just depends what you read. Again, I don't hate homosexuals. I love them, but I do view the practice as unnatural. As a believer, I see marriage as both a joining together of two lives, but also for procreation. Homosexuality cannot produce children by natural processes. And as much as I enjoy having sex with my husband, I cannot seperate our pleasure from our childbearing.An interesting thought too is,If homosexuality was born in someone, why do a large amount of homosexuals change there voices and mannerisms after coming out? It seems that if it had always been there it would be less easy to surpress or hide. I am not saying that this is a fact not a sound way to measure ones actual sexuality, just a thought of mine.
Thank you Shannon for opening this discussion. I hope that it can stay easy going and open to various points of view.
Blessings!
@ kentuckymommy...
ReplyDeleteThere have actually been studies done where researchers found that, when shown home movies depicting both gay/lesbian and straight individuals in childhood, people were capable of fairly accurately determining which children would grow up to be gay and which would not. This suggests that, at least to a certain extent, those mannerisms and such were already present. I know that, among the girls I went to elementary school with, there were a few I later suspected probably grew up to be gay. I hadn't seen the majority of them since we were about ten or so... but it turned out that, in every instance, I was right. There was a difference there. I'm not quite sure how to describe it, but it was there.
I am gay, and you could probably say that I became a bit more "obvious" after I came out. It wasn't that I adopted some false affect or appearance in an effort to appear to be a lesbian. Rather, I stopped spending so much time and energy pretending to be something I wasn't and attempting to mask all the aspects of myself that might render me suspect. (In retrospect, I was probably doing a pretty lousy job of hiding it, as most of my friends, family, and classmates seemed to have me figured out long before I did!) I never really came off as straight, just... awkward.
So, yeah. Maybe some of them (particularly younger, newly out individuals) are accentuating things in order to fit in, experiment with their identity, or make a statement... but I'm guessing a lot of it just has to do with their becoming more comfortable with who they are.
Just my two cents. :)